Sunday, March 27, 2005

A BATTLE OF LIFE AND DEATH

FOR YEARS, THE DEBATE IN AMERICA HAS BEEN 'JUST WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN'? THE ARGUMENT RANGES FROM THE MOMENT A SPERM REACHES AN EGG, TO THREE TRIMESTERS LATER WHEN THAT FIRST GULP OF FREE RANGE AIR IS TAKEN.
A PERFECTLY REASONABLE DEBATE IT IS TOO, WERE IT NOT FOR THE AUDITORIUM IN WHICH IT'S HELD; A WOMAN'S BODY.
NOW, WE FIND OURSELVES BATTLING OVER THE MIRROR IMAGE ISSUE OF JUST WHEN DOES LIFE END.
LINES HAVE BEEN DRAWN IN THE SANDS OF TIME, BUT THEY RESEMBLE SQUIGGLES MORE THAN LINES.
THE LEFT, WHILE CHANTING 'NO MORE WAR' AND 'END THE DEATH PENALTY' HAVE TOO COMFORTABLE A COMFORT LEVEL WITH THE PRO-CHOICE PRO-EUTHANASIA PHILOSOPHY.
THE RIGHT HAVING NO PROBLEM EXECUTING PRISIONERS AND EXCUSING COLLATERAL WAR 'DAMAGE' AS A CASUAL BYPRODUCT, CRINGE AT ABORTION AND FEEDING TUBE EXTRACTIONS.
OUR NEXT DEBATE: HOW DID WE GET HERE...AND...WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

21 comments:

hans blix said...

I'm not sure how we got here but maybe where we go from here is going to be dictated by $$$. European papers have had numerous articles this week about the tens of thousands of Terri Schiavos who died last year because they did not have adequate medical insurance to keep them alive. We will probably reach the point where it will be the accountants who decide.

quicksand said...

THIS IS LAW IN TEXAS, SO I'VE READ. SIGNED INTO LAW BY A FORMER GOVERNOR.
SURE HOPE THOSE ACCOUNTANTS ARE CERTIFIED.

Doctorpece said...

Read most any medical textbook about when life begins. The fetus which means "little one" in Latin even at the earliest stages have a differing DNA than both the father and mother. This is because it is a new creation. And if left alone may grow into.......oh no....a Liberal. If we treated our food the way we treat the unborn we'd starve to death.

Doctorpece said...

There has never been any doubt as to when life began. If you look at almost any culture there is something written about abortion. I’ve read Chinese writings, Islamic, Christian, Jewish and from history and none of them defend abortion. They all look at it as the most heinous thing you can do. The Hippocratic oath which every doctor has recited for the last couple of thousand years includes something about not allowing abortion. A woman should choose and have control over her own body….true. She chose with her partner to have sex and if the result of which is a baby, than that new person has the right to live. If that new addition to her body was a growth or some other unwanted thing..sure get rid of it. But as soon as that woman knows that she is pregnant she needs to bring the child to term and give it away if she chooses. I have many friends who have had to go to Russia and China to get a baby because most of ours here in the States have been aborted. People who believe in abortion should do one thing. They should go to a clinic and watch an abortion. When you see the parts of a babies body get suctioned out, it changes peoples minds very quickly. As far as Iraq goes, maybe you don’t hang out with too many pro-lifers. I am sick to my stomach when I read about our people over there. I am a pacifist as are most pro-lifers. However, when you have people who cannot be negotiated with and who want to kill you I see no other reasonable option other than to kill them first. If there was a man who accosted me and my family one night and threatened to kill us, you can rest assured that by his words he has given birth to a madman in me, and I would do anything and everything in my power to stop him even to the point of killing him if I had to. As far as the 40,000 children dying daily….I agree. But it is the churches and pro-lifers who are doing the most to try and alleviate this. My wife started a mission to Africa a few years back. Right now they are feeding, educating and caring for over 90 orphans from Zambia. Not enough is being done, I totally agree with that.

MilesDavis said...

Me thinks that the good "Doctor" is most asinine in his supposed intellectual "Treatise" on abortion. He discusses Writings of the Chinese, Islam, Jewish, without naming them. If as he says abortion according to these tomes are "the most heinous thing thatyou can do" Please site where and what verse. Also, religious writings that "the good doctor" has alluded to are thousands of years old. Love to see the "Good Doctor"come back as a young scared women, forced by old moldy religious writings and "pompous old men" to give birth to an unwanted child.

quicksand said...

THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE DR. PECE. I'LL RESPOND IN GREATER DETAIL LATER, BUT ONE POINT NOW:

YOU SAY: "However, when you have people who cannot be negotiated with and who want to kill you I see no other reasonable option other than to kill them first"

PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THE PEOPLE WE KILLED, TORTURED, AND MAIMED, HAD TO NEGOTIATE WITH US. NEGOTIATE WHAT?
WE, THE EARTH'S SUPER-MARKET OF WEAPONS, WOULD NOT ALLOW INSPECTIONS TO PROCEED.
DO YOU KNOW ANY IRAQI WHO EVER KILLED AN AMERICAN BEFORE WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY (TO REMOVE WEAPONS THEY DIDN'T HAVE).
PLEASE...ENTER ANY INCIDENT YOU CAN ON THIS BLOG. PLEASE, JUST ONE WILL DO. A SINGLE THING ANY IRAQI DID TO ANY AMERICAN.

THE TWO PIECES OF YOUR MORALITY ARE FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER. YOU ACTUALLY TORTURE YOUR REASONING TO FIT TWO CONFLICTING PRINCIPALS TOGETHER. REALLY, HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY WHAT WE'VE DONE TO SO MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING AMERICANS. GROWN -UP FETUSES ALL, BY THE WAY. YOUR POSITION BECOMES SO WEAK HERE....IT'S HARD TO DEAL WITH. DO NOT COMPARE PEOPLE IN IRAQ WITH SOMEONE WHO BREAKS INTO YOUR HOUSE TO KILL YOUR FAMILY. IT MAKES YOUR WHOLE POSITION FRADULENT. THIS THINKING DOES YOU NO JUSTICE. IT'S FOX-NEWS LIKE...HEAT WITHOUT LIGHT. WORDS WITHOUT SUBSTANCE.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN ABORTION TAKING PLACE. I'LL BET IT'S NOT PLEASANT.ESPECIALLY A LATER-TERM ONE.
I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL AUTOPSIES HOWEVER. THEY'RE NOT VERY NICE EITHER.
I'VE SEEN INJURIES UP CLOSE. I SPENT TWO YEARS IN A REHABILITATION HOSPITAL, WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE HURTING. LIMBS MISSING, EYES NOT WORKING, BED SORES, DROOLING DUE TO BRAIN DAMAGE, VIOLENT SPASAMS, TUBES AND HOSES EVERYWHERE, FECES REMOVED MECHANICALLY, ATROPHY, AND SO MUCH MORE.
1,500+ DEAD AMERICANS. ESTIMATES OF 10,000+ WOUNDED. AND, WE'RE THE WINNERS!
DARE OUR RANCID, FETUS-LOVING GOVERNMENT EVEN APPROACH THE SUBJECT OF WHAT WE'VE DONE TO IRAQIS? AND WHY? BECAUSE THEY BROKE INTO OUR HOUSE AND THREATENED OUR FAMILY?
PEOPLE WHO JUSTIFY THIS HORROR WE'VE DONE ARE WORSE THAN ABORTIONISTS.
MAN, I ACTUALLY HOPE THERE'S A GOD, CAUSE HE'S GONNA' BE SO PISSED AT THOSE 'TRUE BELIEVERS 'WHO JUSTIFY AND GLIBLY EXPLAIN THEIR MARKETING OF HUMAN MISERY.
CHEERS TO YOUR WIFE!
MORE LATER................

quicksand said...

MAYBE THERE IS ROOM FOR A RATIONAL CONVERSATION. JUST MAYBE.
I THINK DR.PECE'S POINT IS GOOD. I FEEL THAT THIS ISSUE HAS MERITS ON BOTH SIDES. AND NO SLIGHT-OF-HAND FROM PRO-CHOICERS CAN CHANGE THE FACT OF WHEN CONCEPTION BEGINS. HOWEVER, I STILL FEEL THAT, IN THE END, ( OR BEGINNING ) A WOMAN CONTROLS HER OWN BODY.
I HAVE DISCOMFORT WITH THE ABORTION CHRONOLOGY.WE ALL REALLY KNOW WHEN LIFE BEGINS. ALTHOUGH I STILL DON'T EQUATE A 5 DAY OLD FETUS WITH A 5 YEAR OLD KID....BUT HEY, THAT'S JUST ME.
HOWEVER, I ALSO HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH POLITICIANS IN SUITS, WITH FOR-SALE-ETHICS, DECIDING WHAT MY WIFE CAN DO WITH HER VERY OWN BODY. STIR IN RELIGION AND WE HAVE A STEW OF HORRORS. I CAN'T ABIDE WITH A SOCIETY WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO MAKE LAWS BASED UPON THEIR FAITH. THE VERY THING THAT WE CLAIM TO BE CHAMPIONING AGAINST IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
I HAVE NO RELIGIOUS FAITH. AND I DON'T WANT RELIGIOUS LAWS.
THERE IS HYPOCRISY IN THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT. YES.
BUT WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE FROM THE PRO-LIFE PEOPLE WHEN THEY DISCUSS THE DEATHS, AT OUR HANDS, IN IRAQ? OR THE 27 DEAD DETAINEES KILLED BY MEMBERS OF OUR MILITARY?
WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE AT POLICIES WHICH CLEARLY HURT PEOPLE SUCH AS RELAXATION OF LEAD OR MERCURY STANDARDS? DO THE PRO-LIFE PEOPLE ONLY LOVE THE FETUS IF IT'S CONCEIVED WITHIN THE CONTINENTAL BOUNDARIES OF THE UNITED STATES. WHAT DO THEY DO FOR THE 40,000 CHILDREN WHO DIE ON THIS GLOBE DAILY. THAT'S 40,000 A DAY...LOOK IT UP.
PERHAPS WE'RE ALL SUFFER FROM SOME SEE-NO-EVIL, PICK-AND-CHOOSE SYNDROME.

Doctorpece said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Doctorpece said...

Miles Davis-Thank you for readily revealing your inability to stick to the real issues and in a matter of a few lines demonstrate that you would like to revise all of history. You all raise legitimate questions especially Quicksand. I find however, that either you are ignoring what I am saying or not understanding it in its totality. Before I do make some attempt of explaining all this to you, I have some questions. I try my best to understand both sides of an issue before I declare the other side “asinine.” I listen to Air America, I read liberal websites and I watch CNN and others (I’ve been to johnkerry.com more often than most liberals…). But….I also listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity….I read Ann Coulter etc. to balance my views. Do you do the same??? Back to my points….All cultures have written about the abortion issue. Listen to your logic. I am “asinine” because I think those that can’t defend themselves should be protected…. well that’s fine with me. I can demonstrate from each age and culture (except our more modern one) that what I’ve said is true. All the following writings pretty much cover every major religion and culture. Here is a sampling:
Islamic
The Quran
"Losers are those who killed their children foolishly, due to their lack of knowledge, and prohibited what God has provided for them, and followed innovations attributed to God. They have gone astray, they are not guided." (6:140)

The Jews
While there is debate among the Rabbis whether abortion is a Biblical or Rabbinical prohibition, all agree on the fundamental concept that fundamentally, abortion is only permitted to protect the life of the mother or in other extraordinary situations.

Most Buddhist commentators have adopted classical Hindu teachings that the transmigration of consciousness occurs at conception, and therefore that all abortion incurs the karmic burden of killing.

[Punnadhammo Bhikkhu is a Buddhist monk living in Ontario.]
"In the Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence and non-killing, abortion is not sanctioned. It is actually one of the Bodhisattva’s practicing vows to avoid all kinds of killing including human-beings and like-beings." Abortion is undeniably the taking of life. The debate centers on the issue as to whether the life in question can be considered human. Buddhism, like most religions, says most emphatically that a fetus is human life.

Christian
"You shall not kill either the fetus by abortion or the new born" (Letter of Barnabas, circa 125)
"We say that women who induce abortions are
murderers, and will have to give account of it to God. For the same person, would not regard the child in the womb as a living being and therefore an object of God's care and then kill it.... But we are altogether consistent in our conduct. We obey reason and do not override it." Petition to Emperor Marcus Aurelius (121-180 CE), circa 150 CE
Clement of Alexandria: (? - 215 CE) "Our whole life can go on in observation of the laws of nature, if we gain dominion over our desires from the beginning and if we do not kill, by various means of a perverse art, the human offspring, born according to the designs of divine providence; for these women who, if order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which expel the child completely dead, abort at the same time their own human feelings." Paedagogus 2
Tertullian (circa 155 - 225 CE): "...we are not permitted, since murder has been prohibited to us once and for all, even to destroy ...the fetus in the womb. It makes no difference whether one destroys a life that has already been born or one that is in the process of birth." 4
St. Hippolytus (circa 170-236 CE): "Reputed believes began to resort to drugs for producing Sterility and to gird themselves round, so as to expel what was conceived on account of their not wanting to have a child either by a slave or by any paltry fellow, for the sake of their family and excessive wealth. Behold, into how great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by inculcating adultery and murder at the same time." "Refutation of all Heresies" 9:7
Minicius Felix (a Christian lawyer; circa 180 - 225 CE): "Some women take medicines to destroy the germ of future life in their own bodies. They commit infanticide before they have given birth to the infant" 5
St. Basil the Great (circa 330 - 379 CE): "She who has deliberately destroyed a fetus has to pay the penalty of murder...here it is not only the child to be born that is vindicated, but also the woman herself who made an attempt against her own life, because usually the women die in such attempts. Furthermore, added to this is the destruction of the child, another murder... Moreover, those, too, who give drugs causing abortion are deliberate murderers themselves, as well as those receiving the poison which kills the fetus." Letter 188:2
St. Ambrose: (339 to 397 CE) "The poor expose their children, the rich kill the fruit of their own bodies in the womb, lest their property be divided up, and they destroy their own children in the womb with murderous poisons. and before life has been passed on, it is annihilated." 6
St. John Chrysostom (circa 340 - 407 CE): "Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? Where there are many efforts at abortion? Where there is murder before the birth? For you do not even let the harlot remain a mere harlot, but make her a murderer also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather something even worse than murder. For I have no real name to give it, since it does not destroy the thing born but prevents its being born. Why then do you abuse the gift of God and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the place of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?" Homily 24 on Romans
St. Jerome (circa 342-420 CE): "They drink potions to ensure sterility and are guilty of murdering a human being not yet conceived. Some, when they learn that they are with child through sin, practice abortion by the use of drugs. Frequently they die themselves and are brought before the rulers of the lower world guilty of three crimes: suicide, adultery against Christ, and murder of an unborn child." Letter 22:13

Have you ever spoken to a woman who has had an abortion and regretted it (which are numerous)? Who by the way, says that the child is unwanted? Maybe unwanted by the mother, but not by society. Read what I wrote before. Your heart bleeds for “young scared women” (and so does mine) but they can get any kind of help they need, but your heart apparently does not bleed for an innocent child still in the womb who is torn apart at a doctor’s hand. You all throw around a lot of big numbers. They pale in comparison with how many babies have been aborted since 1973.
MilesDavis challenged me to prove my point. I have hundreds of other quotes from scriptures and some from historical documents that prove that abortion was considered heinous by the major cultures and religions. Can he prove by way of documents that abortion was considered ok in these cultures and religions? Give me some examples!!!
So, my question to Miles. Find me writings from these various religions and cultures and demonstrate that they were in favor of abortion. If you can’t, I would ask that you acknowledge that what I wrote before is not asinine and that your opinion on this is. I wish you luck.
Gentlemen. I really wish I had the time to frolic in this some more. But to be honest, I don’t get the sense from what I’ve been reading that you are willing to dialogue with an open mind. So….I will disappear, but will continue to pray for you.

quicksand said...

GOODBYE DR. PECE. TOO BAD YOU COULDN'T FIT THE ANSWER TO MY IRAQ QUESTION IN WITH YOUR LONG TRETISE ON RELIGION. NO ANSWER? PERHAPS YOU REALIZE THAT EVEN THOUGH...GASP...I MISSPELLED A NAME...KUDLOW...I SURE KNOW BULLSHIT WHEN I SMELL IT.
I DON'T CARE WHAT RELIGIONS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ANYTHING...PAST AND PRESENT. THE WORLD WOULD BE BETTER WITHOUT RELIGIONS.
SOME LAST WORDS...IRAQ...DEAD PEOPLE...DEAD FETUSES...PRO-LIFE...MAIMED...I KNOW HOW TO SPELL "BULLSHIT"

quicksand said...

THANKS FOR THE PRAYERS...BUT COULD YOU TRANSFER THEM TO THE THOUSANDS OF HUMANS WHO DIED IN IRAQ IN THE NAME OF YOUR DESEASED POLICY.
YOU BETTER HOPE THAT THERE IS NO GOD.

Doctorpece said...

Bruce-Thank you for your kind words, as usual. I did answer you, even before you asked, but you didn't like my answer. That my friend is too bad. I'm glad you know bullshit when you see it. The reason is that you hear it so often, most often from Liberals. The problem is that you see only what you want to see and only from the slant that you feel comfortable with. I already pray for those people in Iraq. It sounds like you need the prayers as well (as we all do). If there is no God Bruce, then all the killing doesn't matter. Human life only has meaning because of God. It is God's law that says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...Bruce...there is a God and I hope one day you will soften that tough exterior of yours and allow Him in. It's really not so bad. By the way, I was responding in that religious treatise for Miles. I didn't mean to ignore you, but I answered all those questions you asked in other writings. It's been fun Bruce, thank you for all the entertainment. I will be back when I see some time clear.

quicksand said...

I ASKED:
"DO YOU KNOW ANY IRAQI WHO EVER KILLED AN AMERICAN BEFORE WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY (TO REMOVE WEAPONS THEY DIDN'T HAVE)?
PLEASE...ENTER ANY INCIDENT YOU CAN ON THIS BLOG. PLEASE, JUST ONE WILL DO. A SINGLE THING ANY IRAQI DID TO ANY AMERICAN."

YOU ANSWERED:
"... when you have people who cannot be negotiated with and who want to kill you I see no other reasonable option other than to kill them first. If there was a man who accosted me and my family one night and threatened to kill us, you can rest assured that by his words he has given birth to a madman in me, and I would do anything and everything in my power to stop him even to the point of killing him if I had to."

AND YET, YOU SAY THAT YOU ANSWERED THE QUESTION. ASK ANY INTELLIGENT PERSON THAT YOU KNOW IF THEY BELIEVE THAT YOU ANSWERED THE QUESION.

Doctorpece said...

I was referring to my past articles which address the issues you raise.

quicksand said...

PLEASE SHOW ME THE PAST WORDS FROM A PAST ARTICLE. I READ THEM AGAIN... AND CAN'T FIND ANYTHING OTHER THAN...
"However, when you have people who cannot be negotiated with and who want to kill you I see no other reasonable option other than to kill them first"

IS THIS YOUR FINAL ANSWER ( YOU CAN ASK FOR A LIFE-LINE ) AS TO WHY WE DID THE RIGHT THING IN KILLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE?

C'MON, DON'T TEASE ME. YOU'RE FOOLING WITH ME AREN'T YOU?
IS MY PERSISTANCE MAKING YOU UNCOMFORTABLE?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT COGNITIVE DISSONANCE IS? I HAVE A TOUCH OF IT MYSELF...BUT I TRY TO FACE UP TO IT...AND I DON'T TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE.

Doctorpece said...

You think that you are persistant? Interesting. When a question has been answered a few times and the person still doesn't get it...it's called annoyance.

quicksand said...

WHAT ABOUT MY ESTEEM? DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT MY ESTEEM. MAKE ME FEEL GOOD. BUILD ME UP. DON'T CALL ME ANNOYING. CALL ME....ER.....CHALLENGING...OR CURIOUS.
Y'KNOW, I USED TO BE A FETUS.

Purple Haze said...

Heavy stuff Quicksand and Dr. Pece. I have a simple question that perhaps someone can answer. Why do the pro life people support the death penalty and the pro choice people reject the death penalty? Is it like Gallagher says, "You park on a driveway and drive on a parkway?" Are all things so "wogical?"

quicksand said...

YOU POINT OUT ONE OF THE POLITICAL CONTRADICTIONS I'VE WONDERED ABOUT.
SPEAKING FOR ONE PERSON, ME, A PERSON OUTSIDE THE WOMB HAS A TAD MORE RIGHTS THAN A TWO MONTH OLD FETUS. AND, NO, I'M NOT FULLY COMFORTABLE WITH THAT EXPLANATION.
THE BEST I CAN EXPLAIN IT IS THUS...IF MY WIFE WERE TWO MONTHS PREGNANT AND WAS IN A CAR ACCIDENT, AND ONLY ONE COULD SURVIVE...I WOULD WANT IT TO BE MY WIFE. NOT A NICE CHOICE, BUT, MY CHOICE.
FEEL FREE TO TEAR MY POSITION TO SHREDS.

quicksand said...

MR. PURPLE,
I CORRECTED MY SPELLING. ALSO, ABOUT YOUR QUESTION...PLEASE SEE MY ARTICLE..."A BATTLE OF LIFE AND DEATH".
FURTHERMORE, YOUR COMMUTE IS LONGER, BUT IS THE BUBBLE REALLY BIGGER. YOU TRAVEL THOSE MILES IN YOUR CAR. SO, PHYSICALLY THE CIRCLE IS BIGGER...BUT DOES IT CHANGE THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL?

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